paranoid much?

the point of the signatures being upside down is so you can't copy them. Having ID will not fix the problem of poll workers who are not doing their job properly. Since your ID does not require a current address, people with PA ID can still vote in other states and districts in PA. Law does not stop fraud, just voting by people unable to jump through the hoops to get it. IF they could jump through the hoops, they don't even need any backup info to get ID to vote, just sign an affidavit. The whole thing is a sham

Cashing a check at a bank is a privelege. Voting is a right. And let's leave out all discussion of alleged voter fraud in Florida and any other state except Pennsylvania. This is a matter of state law, and I want to see proof that there have been documented incidents of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania.

No, I'm not going to show my ID if asked, and I'm going to explain why in a voice loud enough for everyone at my polling place to hear. They have my signature on file, I'll sign in when I show up, and they can compare my signature on election day to the signature that has been on file since the first election I voted in (at age 21). If there is good reason to suspect voter fraud in this state, we should tighten up the process of voter registration, not create potential barriers for voters on election day.

Kathleen Gaberson why leave out the state of Florida as many of the people that voted in their home state PENNSYLVANIA and in Florida came from Pennsylvania and are snow birds.
Adrian Seltzer- Showing Proper Photo ID worked in OHIO and they cut down on many who were voting more than once over the last 10 years. If it can work in other states it will work in Pennsylvania.

cc, I'm really intrigued--Are you saying that people who were registered to vote both in Pennsylvania and in Florida actually voted in both states on the same day? Hard to believe that any number of people would have paid for the airfare to be in 2 states on the same day to vote in both locations. Absentee ballot in one and in-person voting in the other, maybe? How would requiring a photo ID to vote in Pennsylvania prevent that from happening? If a person voted in person in Pennsylvania and by absentee ballot in Florida, it's not Pennsylvania's problem, so why pass legislation to fix a nonproblem? If the circumstances were reversed and the person voted by absentee ballot in Pennsylvania, he or she would not have to show a photo ID. It would be a moot point, anyway, because absentee ballots are not even counted unless election results are so close that the absentee ballots might decide the outcome.

Kathleen, absentee ballots are counted at the end of the night at the polling place and is part of the offical count.
Funny how people can come up with all these scenarios for voter fraud and the PA law wouldn't stop any of them.

Adrian, absentee ballot counting procedures vary by county in Pennsylvania. Not all get counted on the night of the election. http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120420/NEWS/204200334/-1/news

I agree 100% Nora. I would love to know why anyone would rationally oppose to show an ID to vote when you need one for virtually everything these days.

It's like a parent asking their kid to show you his hands when he has them tucked behind his back. If he has nothing to hide he has no problem with showing them to you. It's only when he is up to something that he hesitates.

People make it sound like it's some massive invasion of privacy. It's not like they're asking you to show your underwear. It's just ridiculous.

Matt asks "I would love to know why anyone would rationally oppose to show an ID to vote," (but in fact he seems to ignore all the rational arguments put forth.) Why I oppose Voter ID, is that first and foremost, voting is a basic right and putting up arbitrary, un-needed roadblocks goes against what it means to live in a democracy. On the practical side, I know someone who had his Driver License taken away for 30 days for DUI this week (14 days before the election). Under Voter ID he would not be able to vote or would have to scramble to get an alternative ID. The problem is Driver Licenses are connected with the right to drive, not the right to vote. If we all had a national ID with picture, then I would have no problem, but that is not the case and probably never will be, making Voter ID an absurd Catch 22 for many citizens.

@ Sven - Sorry if I don't have any great sympathy for your drunk-driver friend having to make an extra effort to get an ID since he had to surrender his license. I won't lose any sleep if he misses his opportunity to vote.

In respect to others, a person has two years in between elections to get an ID. If they only had a limited window of a week or two I could understand the debate, but they have plenty of time. It's a minimal requirement to participate in the election process. You are correct in stating that voting is a right, but it is also a privilege. In our country we are guaranteed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We are not guaranteed that the government takes care of us like we are a bunch of incapable citizens If we are not willing to make an effort to participate we should not be able to participate. What's next, having the board of elections go door-to-door to get our votes because it's "inconvenient" to get to a voting location?

For the record, I do think that all state and federal picture ID's should qualify.

Matt, there are elections every 6 months. Voting is a right, you can take away a privilege , I think you might mean voting is a responsibility.

Here's your options people, Raja who is a reformer that isn't a career politician and who brings a fresh perspective, OR Matt Smith who is a Harrisburg politician that lied about taking a pension, voted for raising taxes on small businesses, and has voted for over 5 billion in new spending INCLUDING the Arlen Spectar Library AND funding for Jerry Sandusky's 2nd mile. YES THIS IS A VERIFIABLE FACT, MATT SMITH VOTED TO FUND JERRY SANDUSKY'S CHARITY AFTER THE ALLEGATIONS HAD BEEN MADE- Matt is too busy running for House, Senate, and being a full time attorney to read the legislation he's voting for OR he's so far in the back pockets of Education Unions that it's blinding. Please check for yourself and your own two eyes (Act 130 12/19/2011) (Capitol Budgets 2009-2011) .

THERE IS NO VOTER FRAUD CAN YOU HEAR DO YOU SEE? THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO STOP PEOPLE FROM VOTING. EVERYONE DOES NOT HAVE ID FACE THAT FACT.STOP THINKING ABOUT YOURSELF AND THINK ABOUT OTHERS, IF THAT WOULD HAPPEN WE WOULD BE BETTER OFF. WE FIGHT EACH OTHER WHILE PEOPLE STEP ALL OVER US.

This is a common sense law, people have to show ID when they go to rent a movie, get on an airplane, or buy cigarettes. I can't believe Matt Smith tried to block this legislation. We need to protect the cornerstone of our democracy.

Jon: "This is a common sense law, people have to show ID when they go to rent a movie". Huh? It is not common sense is that a non-driving senior citizen, who has a valid voter registration card and has voted at the same poll for the past 20 years is suddenly asked for a picture id. I find not allowing eligible citizens to vote is severe violation of the "cornerstone of democracy" that needs much more careful consideration than has been shown in Harrisburg over the last 2 months.

Jon Vernon, re: your comment to Sven re: his being a "European socialist"--totally inappropriate, rude, and unlikely to persuade anyone to see your point of view. I can't believe that you are drawing conclusions about a person's beliefs and ethnic background based solely on his name. Shameful!

no voter fraud they found no voter fraud. The IDs are not free, they are costing us taypayers big money and let me repeat no voter fraud. It is even costing people who have to get them time and money to get there. Do you know some counties do not even have a DMV.The state saids it does not have money but we can waste money on IDs, I wonder why. Maybe voter supression. Did your mom ever tell you nothing in life is free. do you really think people are going from state to state to vote if so they can run from state to state to get IDs. We the little people are fighting each other while the big people run all over us. In PA we already have voter supression, have you notice other states have weeks even a month to vote, we only have one day and we have never even questioned that, that is crazy. We have more pressing issues to deal with, Voter ID should not even be on the agenda

Ah yes, an ID tattoo - can't think of just what that calls to mind but Corbett, Turzai and the gang may think of it.

Sven, your a European Socialist, I can tell from your name and your greater fear of offending people rather than doing the right thing, and the right thing is give sancitity to every vote by not allowing Philadelphia voter fraud.

Well said Elaine. But even more time and money will have to be spent to dump Corbett's crap concept before the next election. As I said before, the only ID I will show is my calling card so they can more easily find and spell my name.
As for "common sense", sit outside for a few hours and watch the Sun. Common sense says it circles the Earth and so it was thought to be for many centuries and the idea was enforced by the Church of the time, as Galileo found out.

CC, go volunteer to work as a clerk at your polling place so you can make sure there is no funny business going on. We need more concerned citizens to help on election day.

@Adrian, just curious, Do you volunteer at the polls? If not don't call out people that have their own ideas. We are all free to have an opinion. I am a registered democrat and I personally do not see what the big deal is. My 90 year old grandmother who never drove a day in her life has had a state id for years. Not a big deal to get and not a big deal to show at the polls.

Adrian I did work at the polling places for many years. I run my own business now and don't have the time to do it now or I would still be doing it. There is nothing wrong with showing ID to vote. There is a big problem though when your voting for cartoon characters instead of real people

Cc, since you worked the polls for many years, do you personally know any examples of voter fraud? Voting for anything is better than voting for Daryl Metcalfe.

@kim, I have been working at the polls, checking in voters for over 20 years, (inspector of elections for about 11 yrs now) which is part of the reason that I know preventing fraud is not behind the law. I contacted everyone in the PA assembly and told them how they could prevent fraud. They didn't listen.
Since 2001, getting a new PennDOT ID has been a lot more difficult, needing a birth certificate, proofs of residence, etc. It is also not easy for people who don't drive, or have wonderful grandchildren who will take them, to get to the limited number of PennDOT locations that do ID. Renewing ID is much easier. CC & I are continuing a discussion from another blog post, so there's a little history. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, its just that if someone is SOOOO concerned about fraud, they could be working at the polls and be part of the solution instead of just wanting to disenfranchise others on the slight chance there could be fraud

Adrian there is fraud out there. You don't agree with it but facts are that there is. I was talking to someone at the desk at the license place that said someone was in there two days in a row trying to get just a Voters ID cards for a fictitious name. Seems like the guy was in there the day before with another name who got a Voters ID card and was trying to do it with another name. You don't believe in Fraud but it is out there.

CC, at no point did I say there wasn't fraud out there, I just keep saying that the PA law will not prevent it. The Dept of State ID that the guy was trying to get, needs NO back up info, not even a social security #, just a signature on an affidavit. The law does not prevent fraud, but now with the DOS ID and no current address needed, it will institutionalize it, while throwing off seniors and other legitimate voters, who can't get to PennDOT. It is a joke on all of you who support it.

i too sometimes have a problem with people spelling or pronouncing my name. Therefore I present the poll workers with my calling card and they can send that to our sweetheart Governor Corbett and his buddies who wish to disqualify those who might not vote the way they he want.

It's not totally a dem/rep issue Proud American. We have discussed voter ID during lunch at work on many occassions. Most of the people sitting at the table were democrats and every single one of them are for voter ID's. It is a democrat politican /republican politican issue. But not all free-thinking democrats on the street go along with the party elites on this.

I have nothing to hide, either, but I'm not going to show my ID as a matter of principle. I am protesting the passage of an unnecessary law that potentially limits the voting rights of vulnerable groups in our state.

all we have to do is look at who is pushing these laws to know who needs the help. Cry fraud to take the attention off of real fraud

1 and yes

Are you suggesting that everyone who refuses to show ID intends to commit voter fraud? For 6 years I lived in one state and worked in another. I probably could have registered to vote in the state where I worked because I lived there several days a week, and then I could have voted in both states. But I did not and would never do such a thing because it's wrong. I know the difference between right and wrong, even if I choose not to show my ID.

So how many times in the years that you have been voting, has that happened to you or anyone you know?

Felicia, are you really suggesting that anyone who refuses to show an ID for this election has something to hide? On what evidence do you base that conclusion? You know nothing about me, and yet you would make a sweeping generalization about my character on the basis of my choice not to show an ID that is not required?

Felicia B I agree with you. Next election when they have to show ID they will be screaming the same thing. You can't please a Democrat at all.

Felicia, you don't have to be a citizen to get a driver's license. IF dead people and people who are not registered are voting, that is due to the incompetence of your judge of elections and inspectors or it is with their blessing. ID will not stop/help that. If you see that happening at your polling place, report it immediately to your county election board. If you suspect it, you could volunteer to be a poll watcher or work as a clerk of elections.

cc, re: your comment about Democrats never being pleased--This would be an ever-so-much more civil discussion if you would attempt to persuade instead of inflaming.

<<Felicia B
I moved to the borough I live in over 20 years ago - and at every election, they've asked to see my ID before signing the voter log. It REALLY isn't a big deal.>>

No big deal at all IF YOU ALREADY HAVE THE SPECIFIC ID THEY REQUIRE

<<To those who think it is, I suspect you have something to hide.>>

HERE comes the hyperbole!

<<And you must really object to showing that ID when buying beer or wine or cigarettes. How about using a credit card? Must get tiring telling all those cashiers how they are violating your right to privacy.>>

Some people pay cash and don't drink or smoke, you know.

<<Voter fraud is real. I'm all for taking measures to make sure only those who are citizens and registered (and actual real live people) get to vote.>>

Any voter fraud that exists is not stopped by this kind of law. Stop and think about it. Do you really think there are no fake IDs out there?

If you were a long time registered voter and did not have the specific ID this law requires (well they do keep changing their requirements...) then would you have a problem with it?

Frank - Don't forget to vote on November 9th :)

Wow, can you share some of that hallucinogen? I may need it if we have to endure 4 more years of this!

Frank,

I assume you are aware of the fact that proper identification is being
provided for "FREE" to those who need free ID?

Nora, there used to be a lot of hoop jumping to get that free ID, but now as long as you can get to a PennDOT location that does ID, you don't need any backup info to get it, not even a social security number. All you have to do is sign an affidavit. So now you don't need ID to register to vote and you don't need ID to get ID to vote. What was the point of the law? It is just an exercise in hoop jumping. I know all the law supporters will ignore this. They can't handle the truth.

Frank, you went just a tad too far. Obama is certainly not the best President by a lot and we have had a bunch of real terrible and stupid ones (start backwards with G.W. Bush) but, given the choices now , he does seem rather better than one who who changes his views and statements to what he thinks the audience wants to hear. Makes up statistics and refuses to reveal the details of his secret plans, does not really give a damn about women's control of their bodies and their reproductive rights, or seniors, except to court their votes by distracting them from what he and creepy Ayn Rand acolyte Ryan will do to their kids and grand kids.

I trust this comment was in jest, or otherwise, it put's the posters sanity in question.
Then again, what the hell did Washington or Lincoln ever accomplish? Why, their pathetic achievements pale in comparison to the annointed one, the bringer of peace and prosperity, the all knowing. all seeing, wisest man to ever walk the earth, or even Chicago, the glorious, dear leader BH Obama. Forward!

Thanks Frank call it as you see it since some people seem to be blind to what is going on.

Frank K, name-calling is inappropriate, rude, childish, and unlikely to persuade anyone to see your point of view.

Quoting: "... The law that does not stop fraud. ...."

Just repeating it again. Perhaps one more time (after the upteen-thousandth time) will get the message across. Sure it will!!!

Yes Roger, I am hoping someone will tell me how it is wrong. Can you show me how it is wrong? Rep Metcalfe and Turzai's offices couldn't and didn't get back to me with an answer, the hundreds of times I have asked for an answer to the question how it will stop fraud and I still don't have an answer. I get criticized and made fun of for asking, but until someone shows me how it is wrong, I will keep repeating it.

roger, still waiting for an answer...

Adrian maybe they didn't get back to you since they think your one of the nuts that calls their offices a million times over stupid things of no importance.

I'm glad you think that disenfranchising citizens of PA is an issue of no importance. As an inspector of elections, a free and free election is my top priority. When 2 seniors came in to vote in April ( they are there EVERY election) and said they wouldn't be able to vote after this because they were unable to get ID, I got very upset that these people who had been voting legally for decades were now being disenfranchised. By the way they are Republicans. I have visited senior centers, helped people fill out paperwork and instructed somewhere around 500 people in the ins and outs of the law and getting ID. I do not just spout the rhetoric feed to me by political hacks. I know there are issues with voter fraud, I know that a million people are not being disenfranchised in PA, but I also know that the law is a sham and put in place solely for political reasons. Why else would the law not prevent fraud? I don't get an answer to that question either.

Adrain, I am very respectful of your efforts assisting seniors and others to work through the ID process. However, you lost crediblity with me as far as the law goes when you said that training in handwriting analysis isn't needed to determine if the signatures match. It makes me wonder how much training anyone gets if an inspector of elections truely believes that training isn't required for the one SINGLE step used to verify a persons identity. Your arguments lost credibilty with me after that.

cc, re: your comment about Adrian's being ignored by Turzai and Metcalfe because he "calls their offices a million times over stupid things of no importance"--I thought that contacting legislators with one's concerns was a privelege of participating in representative government. We elect the legislators, and they work for us. That means that they need to be responsive to our concerns.

Sue, you don't have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the signature doesn't match to ask for ID. If it doesn't look right, you ask. Also I see your birthdate, so if you don't look the age too, asked for ID. By the way I did study handwriting analysis. I also know most people in the district who vote, since I've been doing this for over 20 years. I still suggest anyone who thinks there's fraud, work the polls and make sure it doesn't happen.

Art – thank you for your rant. I printed it for my 13 year old son to read. I am trying to teach him how to be tolerant in the face of unreasonableness. Sometimes it can difficult to make up examples, but then I saw your post and it was like a beacon of the absurd. Thanks so much – I appreciate it! Have a nice day.

The only disgrace to the American people is obama. I cannot wait till the clown is out of office.

@ Jay - LOL... love it! Too many whack-jobs out there. I love how they feel that the burden of an ID will somehow help the GOP. So what they are essentially saying is that if you don't make the minimal effort it takes to get an ID, you must be a Democrat. That says something about the party doesn't it?

Diane, no one is afraid to show ID. It is the fact that the PA assembly decided that certain ID, which is good to use for a great many things and is the kind a lot of people who do not drive use, is not good for voting. It is not the ID per se, but the limitations put on valid IDs. Do you know that a PA supreme court justice's judicial photo id is not valid for voting? Or a veteran's photo id card? The reality not the rhetoric.

Jay, While you are about demonstrating the fine art of sarcasm to your son, be sure to point out that laws pushed and voted for almost every one restricting, limiting, curtailing and blocking voting were mainly by GOP politicians. And using a dozen different techniques from telling people they can vote by phone, not accepting various otherwise legitimate photo ID's, cutting back on early voting days, reducing early mail votes, cutting back on availability of voting machines so the lines are nice and long in some districts, and even telling people that they can vote on Wednesday instead of Tuesday and other cute tricks. THEREFORE , the GOP must be the only true patriots around. And our very own Turzai has quite openly omitted that these restrictions will really help ex-governor Romney and that speaks for itself. As for those who say they have nothing to hide, they surely will also permit the police to poke around their homes at will, since they have "nothing to hide" - who needs a warrant?

Diane, are you really suggesting that not showing an ID means that someone is afraid to show it? What about those of us who choose not to show an ID that is not required, and do so as a matter of principle or conscience? There will be a legitimate election if everyone who is registered to vote is allowed to vote and all votes are accurately counted and reported. In-person voter fraud is not the problem--intimidating some registered voters and inaccurate counting, recording, and reporting of votes are the biggest obstacles to a legitimate election.

Adrian, I haven't seen a broken Record in a long time until I read the same thing over and over from you. Voter fraud is out there. It get an absentee ballot you need to show PHOTO ID, it should be that way for voting on election day.

cc, as per usual you are misinformed. You do NOT need a photo ID to vote absentee.

Mr Yetman, You no very well what the big deal is. And it is someone is trying to keep someone for voting. Not dead people but poor people and minorities. Get My point?

Shel, please substantiate your claim that dead people are still registered to vote. Is that true in Pennsylvania? If so, how many dead people have voted in the last few general elections? And did those dead people sign in and have their signatures compared to their voter registrations? If so, I think that fault may lie with the poll workers who either weren't trained properly to compare signatures, or who were trained but still didn't perform their functions correctly.

And cashing a check, boarding a plane, and using a credit card all are priveleges. Voting is a right. Requiring citizens to show a particular type of photo ID that not all citizens possess does not permit everyone to exercise his or her constitutional right to vote.

@kathleen, don't expect an answer, you'll never get one. Thanks for info on absentee ballots

I have voted in every election for the last 45 years. And I'm not showing my ID.

Good for you Kathleen Gaberson!

Thank you - seems the editor took it down. Curious how many other supporter's of common sense have had their opinions removed from this list?? That is truly a shame.

Jay, post it again

bob balmer you gave me the best laugh of the day. LOL

We are talking about Pennsylvania law, not Arkansas. Do you have reliable, documented evidence of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania? The fact that it might have happened in other states is insufficient cause for passing a voter ID law in Pennsylvania.

If it is happening in one state it can happen in all states .

The real voter suppression is happening in registration, not at the polls. Check out Strategic Alllied Consulting, who the GOP has hired to do voter registration in at least 30 states. A few weeks ago their CEO was found out to be involved with companies in the past that were accused of voter fraud. Then the situation comes up in Florida where widespread registration fraud is found and the GOP says they're firing Strategic Allied. What they actually did, though, was to make sure Nathan Sproul is no longer it's president. Strategic Allied still have contracts and the latest piece of illegal registration tampering just happened in Virginia when an employee was found tossing Democratic registration forms in a dumpster. This is happening under their eyes, with money that the GOP is paying to them. And these are just the ones that got caught.

What a joke, ACORN investigated themselves and announced the problems that occured (later determined not to have broken any laws). Repubs couldn't wait to have them disbanded, yet continue to give money to this group. The GOP only cares about fraud when they can prevent Democrats from voting.

Many are the cynics who support them by saying these laws are about fraud.

Kathleen Gaberson- Voters fraud is every where including in Pennsylvania. You said the same about Florida yet is was many of the snow birds from PA that also Voted in Florida.

What is it about "FREE" that so many of you do not understand.

"FREE" voter ID is being offered to those who cannot afford it.

In really simple terms, that means it will not cost those people anything.

In the late 1990s after my dad developed macular degeneration, he could no longer drive.

When it came time for his license to be renewed, he went to the PA licensing place
and was given a "photo" ID, instead of a license. Yes he had to pay for it but the voter ID being discussed is "FREE" for those who cannot afford it.

This coming election you do not need to have a driver's license or voter's ID to vote.

You do not need to have any identification to vote this year, and if I were a less
then honest person I know a couple of people who died recently that I sure would love someone to go vote for them.... But I won't because I believe in one vote per
living person.

Will this stop all voter fraud. No way. But it will help., And as to you further comment about poll workers not being trained to spot fake ID... You are correct.

Then fingerprinting, or retinal identification might be a far better way to go...

And that way, Not a single person would ever have to "pay" for ID, period.

Maybe you need to do a better job in training poll workers to spot Phony ID's. Bars have a machine that can spot them, maybe those need to be brought into polling places, since they don't get proper training.

We could just do what thrid world countries do, and dip everyone's finger in ink after they vote. I'd prefer facial or thumb print recognition, but I'm sure some will consider that an invasion of privacy. Since the ACA requires all health records go into a data base, maybe we could just combine the thumb prints and store it all there.

Why bother when you need no backup info to get a dept of state ID. Way easier to get than a fake id

Sue T, what database does the ACA require that all health records go into? I thought that the requirement was that health records be kept electronically, not that all records are collected into one database. What is the source of your information?

as long as you have an id?

what a great american. protecting the sanctity of the votr

Anyone can get a photo ID to vote, that is if they care about honest elections.

another great american

I agree, notsurprised. And those who do not own a car and must rely on public transportation are really disadvantaged. With the decline in funding for public transportation, bus routes have been eliminated and the remaining bus routes run fewer buses each day. Try this little exercise: Go to the PAT website and find out how to get from your home to the closest PA DMV site by bus, trolley, or subway. How many times will you have to transfer, what distance will you have to walk, and what total amount of time will it take for a round trip? Then imagine that you are an elderly adult or person with a disability making that trip. Even if the ID were free, it is expecting a lot of some very vulnerable citizens just to get to the place where IDs are issued, and we haven't even accounted for waiting time at the DMV.

Kathleen There is a DMV in downtown Pittsburgh, all Port Authority Buses goes there so shouldn't be a problem with someone to take a bus and go downtown and go to the DMV. Just don't go on a Monday as they aren't opened but are opened on Saturday. Don't know many people that have to transfer buses to get downtown Pittsburgh. Also Senior Centers have been taking people out to DMV in Bridgeville from the South Hills. Seniors can also use Access to bet to DMV centers.

cc, re: your reply to my comment about the challenges of using PAT to get to the DMV sites--Do you know for sure that the downtown site issues the free IDs? How far would a person have to walk from the bus stop to that office? How often do the buses run to that location? Saturday bus schedules differ from the M-F schedules; buses usually run much less frequently. I repeat my suggestion: Try to map out an itinerary from your home to the PennDOT driver's license center downtown. You will find that even if most bus routes go through downtown, they don't hit all the downtown bus stops. One person's bus route may only go as far as Grant Street without heading outbound again; what if the PennDOT office is near Gateway Center? That means a long walk or a transfer to another bus route.

Which, of course makers it next to impossible for them to be able to get out and vote also.

Polling places are generally not within walking distance of where most people live.

There is no reason why it would have to be the DMV. It could be the Post Office.
As laughable as that may sound, the federal government, also being laughable, trust the post office for passport photos as well as securing the proper infomation for you to get one, they could be part of this... and no... don't argue it is a PA issue and therefore could not use them because this is being debated all over the country.

I, for one, happily volunteer to pick up anyone and take them to vote and back home, if they need it.

I am now going to volunteer to pick up anyone to go get their photo ID and take them back home.

Anyone else care to be of service in this?

Kathleen the DMV downtown Pittsburgh does photo ID's. Many people that work in town go there to get their drivers license renewed and photo's taken on their lunch hour. You are a typical democrat boohooing.

In the real adult world, not voting just tells them that you don't care and they're free to do as they please.

If you want to tell the government how much you despise it, work to get candidates that share your views on the ballots. I realize this is almost impossible in this state, but then work to get the laws restricting ballot access changed.

The easy (lazy) way out is to just not vote. Just don't kid yourself about the message you're sending.

Not sure what debate you watched, but it seemed to me that Romney now agrees with all of Obama's actual policies but still has his talking points about leading from behind and apologizing. Romney basically said he agrees with most of Obama's middle east policy. He now wants the Iran sanctions to work, when only months ago he was all about going to war.

This pretty much follows along with everything he's done in the debates - namely walk back all the radical conservative ideas he's been spouting to his base and trying to appeal to the middle.

Anyone who, like you, just wants Obama gone is going to vote for him and then wait to see which Romney we'll get as president. Others will be concerned that we'll get the radical tea partier that we saw earlier and won't vote for him no matter how the Etch-a-Sketch shakes out. I don't think any of the debates will decide the election, no matter how you think the majority of voters feel.

How does this law make fraud easier Adrian? Please explain.

As I said above, you don't need any ID to register to vote or get the Dept of State ID, so now when you go to vote you have everything you need. Before you had the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) standards and the ID needed for 1st time voters needed your name and current address. Now anyone who wants to spend the time getting various registrations and DOS ID's can go and do it. Granted the likelihood is small, but it helps the people who vote in multiple districts, resurrected dead people, illegal aliens and all the other instances of fraud the supporters of the law incorrectly think the law will fix.

Well Adrain, when you register to vote, you need to supply your PA DL# or you SS#. If you do this in person I'm betting they ask for these documents and I bet if you mail your registration in they check this info.

Ed, in response to your comment about requiring identifying information when you register to vote: That's exactly the point we are trying to make about the uselessness of a law requiring you to show photo ID when you show up to vote. If we are verifying the identities of those who register to vote, and if we obtain their signatures at that time, then we merely have to compare the signatures they use to sign in at the polls with the signature on file. That's what we do now; why do we need a law that requires additional ID?

Kathleen--when you are all formally trained and certified in handwriting analysis I will agree with you. Up until that point, comparison of signatures by poll workers does mean much since they really don't know what they are doing. That's why photo IDs make a lot of sense.

@Ed, if you read the instructions on the voter registration form, "if you do not have a social security number, please write none in the boxes." ver 1/04. " line 3 there is a box to check, " I DO NOT have a PA driver's license or social security Number." ver 5/11. No ID needed. You can check votesPA.com if you don't believe me, but I have copies of the forms here. @sue, you don't have to be a handwriting analyst to know if a signature matches, thousands of retail clerks do it everyday. If you have any question about the signature you ask for ID. The way it always worked. It is not rocket science, in fact it's not even science, you just can't be blind.

Kathleen,

My wife could walk into the polls with your voted ID card and vote using your name. Heck, she doesn't even need the card!

Adrian,

I read the instructions and how many people don't have a SSN or drivers license???? And the way I signed my name when I registered to vote in 1974 is not the way I sign my name now and I'm betting that is the case for most people. Hence, comparing signatures isn't a valid way to prove who you are.

Ed, that is the way fraud starts, with illegal registrations. Before and this election, now that the law is postponed, there are a bunch of IDs that are usable for first time voters to use, but since the registrations are not really checked, what's the point of the IDs?
If either the last 4 of your social or dl# were required, than that with your birthdate would insurance the voter rolls were accurate. They could also get death reports for ssa. Than you won't need the whole expiration date bs, so most people would than be okay to vote. I believe I already posted in this thread about how the assembly made perfectly good photo IDs invalid to vote. That action, not doing anything to guarantee an accurate voter roll and not mandating poll worker training is why I know this law was passed for purely political reasons, to disenfranchise voters.

Ed, you can change your signature in the book to be more accurate on election day. Ask your judge for a yellow signature change paper. If more people were asked for IDs when their signature didn't match, that would do a lot to prevent fraud. Problem is, instead of enforcing the law we had, the assembly used the fraud scare to produce a system even more ineffective.

I'm not talking about illegal registrations. Under the current system, my wife could vote as you or anyone else for that fact.

So it's OK to ask for ID when a signature doesn't match! But I still don't have to produce ID. I'm seeing a double standard in that logic.

Ed, there isn't a double standard, if you understand MY points and are not just basing your comments on the rhetoric from the left. I am not saying ID in itself is bad, just the way PA went about doing it.

Ed M, re: your comment "My wife could walk into the polls with your voter ID card and vote using your name"--Your wife would have to sign my name in a manner that matches the signature on my registration card. And she would have a hard time persuading the poll workers, who know me well, that she was me.

And to all who insist that one must be proficient in handwriting analysis to correctly judge if the signatures are alike--An in-depth detailed analysis of handwriting characteristics is not necessary to be able to judge whether two signatures are alike. Why, the teller at my bank does it all the time when I present a check to be cashed, and I'm not asked to show a photo ID.

The statements here by poll workers that there is not training needed to compare signatures just shows the sorry state of election laws and the the enforcement of these laws. Why have training???? Any monkey can do it??? Sorry, I can't take this entire discussion seriously if the need for training can not be recognized by those actually responsible for the process.

Sue, I have stated a ridiculous amount of times that poll worker training should be mandatory and that would do more to stop any fraud than the law we have in PA. How it is supposed to work is, someone comes in to vote, they state their name, we look up their name, cover their signature and they sign the book. There is no copying, only guessing at the signature if that isn't the person. A guess is not hard to distinguish from the real signature. If the signature doesn't look the same or we have ANY question about it's authenticity, we are supposed to ask for ID. It is also the voter's responsibility to keep their signature updated, so that if your signature has changed and you are asked for ID to substantiate it, you should sign a new signature paper that should be there at the polls. Problem is workers are not trained properly and do not do the proper procedures. If you have questions on how the election is being conducted at your polling place you should report it to the judge of elections. Don't like their response, report it to county board of elections and maybe run for judge or inspector of elections. Problem is everyone would rather pontificate on voter fraud than work on election day. And because most people do not work at the polls election day, they have no clue what they are talking about and are just regurgitating talking points from people with a political agenda. I know what would need to be done to stop fraud, the law is not it

Bob,
Do you have any facts to back up your statement?

Why do you say poor minorities can't get an ID? Most states offer to cover the cost for free. What is this big "roadblock" that you all keep alluding to? Voters have plenty of time before each election so time is not a barrier. As I said, the states offer it for free, so cost is not the issue. There are tons of driver's license centers across the state so access isn't an issue.

If a person cannot put forth the very minimal and reasonable effort it takes to get an ID in advance of an election then that is on them. Personally I think we should mandate social security numbers with the ID's while also recognizing all forms of state and federal ID's.

Everyone says voter fraud is not a big issue. Well, if ID's prevent the fraud that does exist, whether it's large or small, isn't it incumbent on us as citizen's to try and stop it? We try to prevent other crimes, why turn a blind eye to this one?

Ed, you got the proof in my other response to you. And Rep Turzai's admission.

What other response, Adrian?

Matt, just because there is no charge for the ID itself doesn't mean that there are no costs involved. As several people have pointed out, not everyone has a car and a driver's license, so transportation to the ID center is more of a challenge. Consider the sorry state of public transportation in this area and the number of elderly people and people with disabilities who would have to use it to get to the ID center. And to those of you who suggested that those folks could use ACCESS to get to the ID center--do you realize that each ACCESS trip costs the rider a certain amount of money, based on the nature and distance of the trip? Yes, those of us who drive must pay for the gas to get there, but if you are elderly or disabled and on a fixed income, paying for a round-trip on ACCESS just to get a photo ID so that you can exercise your constitutional right to vote is an unnecessary burden.

Matt, re: "We try to prevent other crimes, why turn a blind eye to this one?"--No one has yet to give us reliable documented evidence that in-person voter ID fraud exists in Pennsylvania. Even if it did occur, what is the threshold at which the voters in this Commonwealth would agree on the need to institute preventive measures? 100 cases per election? 1 case per election? And if you are interested in preventing all crimes, I have a suggestion for you--Make the possession of assault weapons for personal use (not law enforcement) illegal. Just think how many murders and homicides that would prevent. What?! You would cry "second amendment rights"? What about voting rights?

Ed, here it is: the assembly made perfectly good photo IDs invalid for voting. That action, not doing anything to guarantee an accurate voter roll and not mandating poll worker training is why I know this law was passed for purely political reasons. Add to that, Rep Turzai's statement admitting it.

Adrian,

In my opinion, a photo ID is the best way to determine someone's identity. Signatures change.

Why yes Ed! I do have facts to back up my statement

And your point is? Each state will be different no two states will have identical laws

The point, in case you missed it in the last months, is that PA's law is in the most restrictive categories, has been changed at least twice already to make it less restrictive before being stopped for the time being.

Yes, that's a point as well as just providing a very informative site, which shows the lists of 4 states with strict photo ID laws, 7 with not as restrictive photo ID laws, 6 which have such laws but NOT in effect in 2012. Such as PA, the additional information there states: A state judge temporarily blocked enforcement of Pennsylvania's new voter ID law. It will not be in effect for the November 2012 election, and a trial on its permanent status will begin after the election.

That sounds just like the May primary elections.

I heard there will be poll watchers to see that no one is harassed about NOT showing ID; that each registered voter has their legal right to vote.

You can change your signature at the time of voting so you can keep it up to date.

The writer's statements are undeniable. Representative Turzai, apparently believing that his stunning statement would not reach beyond the GOP partisans to whom it was directed at the time, has served to embarrass those of us who believe that government has the right and duty to require identification from those who seek to vote. He told me that his comment was taken out of context, but did not explain how, nor to my knowledge, has he ever addressed the matter at length with the media. It is reasonable to conclude that he meant what he said, that at least some of the state Republicans that approved Voter ID did so in order to disenfranchise those it does not want to come to the polls. I could not in good conscience stand by as any legitimate voter is denied the right to vote due to requirements they could not meet. Yes, we should implement Voter ID, but it should be done for the right reasons and implemented in a manner which enables all eligible voters to cast their ballots.

Turzai's boast was brought up. The blind ones just refuse to see, or maybe they just could not comprehend what Turzai actually said.

For those needing a refresher:
House Majority Leader Mike Turzai (R-Allegheny) suggested that the House’s end game in passing the Voter ID law was to benefit the GOP politically.

“We are focused on making sure that we meet our obligations that we’ve talked about for years,” said Turzai in a speech to committee members Saturday. He mentioned the law among a laundry list of accomplishments made by the GOP-run legislature.

“Pro-Second Amendment? The Castle Doctrine, it’s done. First pro-life legislation – abortion facility regulations – in 22 years, done. Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done.”

The statement drew a loud round of applause from the audience. It also struck a nerve among critics, who called it an admission that they passed the bill to make it harder for Democrats to vote — and not to prevent voter fraud as the legislators claimed.